Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

I'm wondering if anyone here could help me in picking out an upgraded turbo for my truck.

It's a 1994 Ford F250 7.3L IDI turbo diesel, not a powerstroke.

There are limits to what you can do with the turbo due to the 21.5:1 stock compression, and 15 psi is the max boost you really want to run.

I can't remember what redline is...I think it's somewhere around 3500 RPM.

The stock turbo on the truck is a T3/T04B hybrid with an H trim compressor, .70 AR housing and T3 Stage III turbine wheel in a .82 wastegated housing, and it's non intercooled. I'm currently running 10 psi. Top end on the engine sucks. My tach is broken at the moment so I don't actually know what RPM's I'm getting boost at.

The stock turbo is not too bad but I personally would like to upgrade to something with a slightly larger compressor and a larger turbine wheel.

I've looked at some compressor maps and although I'm kinda having a hard time getting a very accurate lbs/min figure (I have no idea what the VE of the engine is, or intake temp), it looks like something around a 60 trim T04E would be ideal for mid to top end power, and probably either an O or P trim turbine.

Just a couple questions to start out with and will add more later I guess. First off, any turbo suggestions? Second, is a Holset H1C or HX40 a viable equivalent? Does anyone know what AR a 16cm holset turbine housing is roughly equivalent to?

Depending on what turbo I use, I may have to find a way to incorporate an external wastegate, I dunno.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

hx50

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

I'm pretty sure an HX50 is too big, from what I've seen...I can't run a huge turbo on this thing like Powerstroke guys do.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

he was talking compound

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

hmm hx50 is good for my 1.8l honda, but not for the 7.xl ford... comon... run that big bitch and keep the boost at 13psi..

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

i heard 14bs go well on diesels

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

That tends to be the case when you don't have ignition timing to play with...
Don't get a turbo that takes forever to spool, your top end will still suck, and your low end will too

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

That idi, is kinda fragile. I would just leave it as is. It seems to me someone does a compressor upgrade, but in the idi it is hardly worth it. Even the early powerstrokes, I would be leary to add much power to.

The cheapest way to get power, is to pull it and drop a 12v cummins in.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

there was a nog back in the day way before the modded diesel fad with a 6.9 ford diesel with big boost and twin turbos putting out 1500 hp and the block flexed so bad it couldn't have frost plugs because it ---- them out. He had big rubber stopers in it, the 6.9 is just a early 7.3. Are you sure they are that fragile?

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Ford made, right?

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

no acually, international.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

too bad, cause then you would of had the easy answer

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

ive got a stock turbo froma 2002 power stroke 7.3L. It would definately be an upgrade.i got some measurements if your serious

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

It was a filled block, and had custom rods, pistons, head, ect... AND iirc it ran a sigma fuel pump and JD sticks as well. So yes unless he is willing to put $20K into it I stand by it being fragile.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

If you really want to try an upgrade, an S300 57mm would be a good one, as would even a stock HX35-12cm. I think your truck falling on its face up high has far more to do with fuel, and timing, then it does turbo. The HX35.12 would spool quicker and moves enough air for ~300hp that is cool enough to drive. This depends as much on timing and driving style as anything though.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

A powerstroke turbo won't work. Already looked into that idea. Due to it being a reverse rotation there's just no easy way (or room) to do it.

Also, the engine is not "fragile." It's running boost on top of 21.5:1 compression and that's where the problems come in, because if boost goes past 15 psi you seriously risk blowing the head gaskets, and that's not a job I particuarly want to do if I don't have to.

2nd, you can play with timing on a diesel, but I don't really know how to set it (it involves advancing or retarding the injector pump and I don't particularly want to screw it up)

3rd, as far as I have calculated the engine should be moving about 25 lb/min at 2500 rpm and 30 lb/min at 3000 RPM. Somewhere in that range.

And finally...Ford engines are fragile? right. How about leaving the brand-bashing BS out of this thread.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

oh kayyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

http://www.pedestrian.tv/uploads/ima...4c/LIL-JON.GIF

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

So you just want more boost but you are scared to turn up the fuel or advance the timing? :-\

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

1st) Brand bashing WTF are you talking about? I have built everything from VW, Ford, Chev, Cummins, to DT's, to JD's ect...

2nd) From what you just wrote I know you don't have a clue about diesels at all. How they make power, how they work ect... You should get a basic understanding before you mod anything. (Example: Unlike a gasoline engine where it is kept at a fairly fixed ~ 10:1-15:1 A/F ratio, therefore when you add boost you add power as you naturally add fuel. On a diesel A/F can run from 6:1 to over 100:1, Fuel makes power not air, so if all you do is add air, you don;t gain ANYTHING. This is why I said start with fuel and timing first, as that is where the power is to be found.

3rd) The CR has very little to do with how much boost it will hold, vw idi's run 23.5 CR and I have run 45psi+ on those.

4th) If you are afraid to change a HG, don't ---- with adding power.

5th) As far as you calculations imagine this... The stock turbo is right there.

6th) Get educated before you start running your mouth about what you think you know. Start here: www.thedieselstop.com

Finally if you ask for advice be prepared to accept what is said. Including in stock form the 7.3 and 6.9 (almost the same motor) idi's are fragile, and take extensive work and $$$ to make any sort of power.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Alrighty nevermind then.

I have plenty of a clue about how diesels "work." I know that you add fuel to make power.

I don't believe I was "running my mouth" about anything but whatever. piss off.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

I thought it was more of Ford squeezing way too much out of the small stock turbos making them blow hot air and that causes problems. And that was only in the recent Powerstrokes....

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

I gave you two good options for turbo upgrades. The holset HX35 has been taken to 450whp + albeit a hot 450. and the S300 57mm has been run to close to 500whp again rather hot. Either one of these will give you more then enough turbo. You should also look at adding a powerstroke intercooler, or w/m or both. Be careful with w/m as that will pop a h/g fast and bend rods if you get too much in there.

You said top end sucks, are you hitting the gov?, and it is pulling back fuel? Are you cleaning up all the fuel you have on the top end? What RPM are you dropping off at? Need more info.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Small H1C isn't going to gain you much over what you have, the big H1C, still wouldn't be worth the hassle. I think the HX40 would make you power band even narrower then it is. By the time you got it lit, you would be done, that and I don't think you have the fuel to support it. This is why I said an HX-35 with a 12cm or 14cm housing.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

21.5 c/r is not a big deal. All diesels have high c/r's like that so it's not really an issue. You make it sound like your risking detonation or something.

But if the head gaskets are going to blow they're going to blow. So either leave it alone, or crank up the fuel and boost, blow them and replace it with a better unit and stronger head studs/bolts.

If you want to play with the timing learn how. I don't know how but I'm sure there's material out there on how to adjust the injector timing.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

really I dont remember it having the pistons and rods but that would make sence. As for a turbo I would run hx35 and call it a day. I dought you will want to spend the cash to ever max out that turbo with that engine.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Iirc the pistons were oem, but cut, but the rods were billet. It really came down to the sigma pump, and big jd sticks.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Actually on a diesel adding more excess air does increase the power output of the engine. It does so by increasing the engines efficiency by putting more of the combustion heat energy into the working fluid instead of the cylinder walls. Its one of the reasons people add intercoolers to diesels. As shown in The Diesel Reference Handbook 2nd Edition (see attached image) increasing air in the cylinder by about 12% increases power output by about 4% for the same amount of fuel burned.

Gale Banks, who has made a fortune hot rodding diesels, says the first rule of increasing performance on a diesel is to add more air. Once you have more air then you can look at turning up the fuel. Which in the case of the example posted was about a 20% increase in power. So ghunt is on the right track as far as looking at a turbo upgrade.



Looks like you need to hit the books too dvst8r. :1

Now that school is over.

Ghunt,

Your best bet is to look at a VGT/VNT turbo. There are guys hot rodding their Mercedes Benz IDI diesels that say this is the route to go. You can find a bunch of them here http://www.superturbodiesel.com . They can also tell you how to make it work without a computer. They have a list of turbos that might be helpful found here http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/...ead-t-235.html

dvst8r did have good advice as far as looking to add an intercooloer. Also make sure you have a free flowing exhaust and a free flowing intake.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Well a couple things here:

1) The turbo on the truck is capable of more air then it is providing.

2) I have gone from a single turbo setup to twin turbo setup, increasing the air by nearly 50%, and went from 490hp and 995ft.lbs, to 492hp 1095ft.lbs these were dyno'd on different days, but all the settings where the same. So despite adding a bunch of extra air, NO power was found. The extra torque was found from going from a medium single, to a small secondary and a med-large primary. So the secondary lit quicker then the former single, therefore the ip was able to add fuel sooner bringing up the cylinder pressure. Extra air no extra power.

3) I ran a vw 1.6 at 24psi on a t3/t4 50 trim .63 hotside. Made 199hp, ran the same setup, same day, same dyno, never unstrapped, just let it cool off some (we were trying to break 200hp) ran it at 30psi and made 194. LOST 5hp. I believe this to be that there was not any extra fuel to burn so it was taking more energy to run the extra psi (more shaft hp needed) and as such was wasted. Extra air no extra power

4) The intercooler would have two functions adding air density power if there is available fuel to burn, as well as keeping egt's in check, when pulling, or running hard. My current setup will wrap an 1800 degree pyro in less then 10 sec WOT. That could use more air.

5) Once you are leaner then the smoke thresh hold you have very little excess fuel and as such adding air is not going to give you much of a boost. If the OP is all ready running clean the expense and effort of doing a turbo swap for MAYBE 10hp is hardly worth wile, especially if he can just put a mbc on the turbo he has and add the extra air.

6) Here is a dyno of a 7.3 idi with added FUEL and TIMING (via adjusting the stock IP) on a STOCK turbo (stock output shown as well):
http://littlepowershop.com/CCI00002.jpg Anymore then this and as is well known to the OP and to 7.3idi owners you blow head gaskets, and need to run studs. Extra Fuel and Timing, extra power.

Finally, Obscene_CNN my EXPERIENCE owns your search button knowledge. :1

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

Gale Banks is an idiot, anyone who mods diesels laugh at him. My truck ran circles around a full power pakage with just a custom programed sct and exhaust. I'd hate to see what my truck would do to it now.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

I agree completely, Banks kits are for the guy with too much money and not enough brain. They have built some fast corporate trucks with outside help I might add, but their consumer kits are a waste, more marketing hype then power.

My old beat up 12v, with FREE mods (turning up the fuel, adjusting the timing) would smash most banks kits. Obscene_CNN is right, Gale banks has made a fortune adding very little power, and charging a $$$$$ ton for it.

Re: Any chance on getting help selecting a turbo upgrade for a diesel?
 

fixed