WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

So I have been running the crap out of my 2000 civic b16a2 since I installed the turbo

specs are

B16a2 <-- stock engine, nothing done internally) 10.2:1 cr of course
Turbonetics .63 stage II
Wg set to 9psi and gauge shows 9psi
450’s
Apex afc2
MSD BTM CD spark
½ on btm
1.8 degrees retarded at dizzy from 16 stock
No wideband yet
P2T at this time
BKR7E 11 plugs
Running super (93 here) with lucas octane booster +1 number per tank

So I started my car with turboEF9’s awesome afc suggestions and I started tuning from there. I started leaning out mainly cause it was so rich. I have been pulling plugs like at every stop to check richness and det and I haven’t seen anything that looks like detonation yet. I have done ¼ mile runs hard and shut her down with nothing, and highway cruzes shutting down and coasting to a stop and seen nothing. I have a magnifine glass and i haven’t seen anything looking like aluminum or little diamonds imbedded or on the plug or heard anything with my naked ears. I have no det can cause I am too lazy to make one right now. I am saving my money to get the kit from xenocron and harness, so this is why I have no wideband. So my afc shows knock and I get numbers like 50-120 back and forth to zero always between 3000-4000 rpms LOW THROTTLE steady. I had to lean it cause it was running so rich on the narrow band and the pcm was adjusting to it and causing a pulsation with steady low throttle from 2000-4000 rpms. When I get to 4000 and 4600 rpms LT, I get no knock number but maybe 30 sometimes but usually steady at zero. SO AM I DETONATING BETWEEN 3-4 grand or do I ignore those numbers? WHAT IS A BAD KNOCK NUMBER AND CAN YOU EVEN TUNE BY KNOCK READINGS? I am freaked out cause all I ever hear is detonation with afc’s and temp (I don’t know my exhaust temps except 204 ect during those knock numbers), well what am I missing???? Plug is still little rich, no heat mark on strap yet, I see no pits on porcelin or shinny alluminum, and white on top of electrode but not going down it. It seems to pull hard with mid to high boost, low boost I know is rich, stumbles from a stop wot.

AFC set to
25% 50% throttle angles
RPM LOW HI
1000 -42 -42
1600 -42 -42
2000 -44 -41
2600 -50 :( -41
3400 -41 -40
4000 -39 -39
5000 -39 -39
5600 -38 -38
6000 -37 -37
6400 -36 -36
7200 -36 -36
8200 -36 -36

So these look lean to me but my car runs much better, plugs still look rich but the low throttle settings worry me ---- even the hi do too. SO again am I missing something? I want it to last untill I go obd1 but I want to drive it too. It might be detonating and I don’t know it. ALSO if I set my throttle points from 6000rpms down to 1000 will it still go -36 up to 8000 rpms so I can get more throttle point between 1-6 grand??? I know this is a lot, but I don’t have anyone else to ask, seems like turbos came and went in San Antonio Tex. You know someone around here let me know, like guys with other turbo hondas, not someone who will charge for tuning or dynos.

Thanks!!!

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

better get some fuel management before you blow ---- up.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

I am showing no signs or blowing anything up. From all the websites i have looked at on spark plug readings, from what they describe, my plug shows no sign or detonation or preignition, if anything they are running alittle cool and little rich, maybe AFC's aren't as bad as everyone says. Yeah i know i might get little more horses with a programmable ecu and i do want to do that eventually but if an afc&btm works good with 9-10 psi then what the hay!!! The car hauls ass! i have some good pics of my plugs and i will post them soon. NE ONE ELSE HAVE ANY IDEAS OF WHAT I COULD BE MISSING??? Maybe i don't have ne thing to worry about.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

I take that back, the plugs show no signs of detonation but i do get the knock readings into the low 100s described in the condition above, those are what worry me. Should i worry??

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

This is what my plug looks like on a hard 1/4 mile or little further run and i shut it down right away.


http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/...1m_3f42b71.jpg

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

heres another shot down inside, as you can see they are rich!

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/...1m_36c70b9.jpg

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

that is what my spark plugs looked like after a normal drive running on afc untuned with no real fuel management

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

What are you saying, your engine blew up or something with an afc?? Where you checking your plugs daily after all types of driving conditions? You aren't very clear with your statements, sorry if i am misunderstanding you!!

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Just wanted to say that the my apexAFC is not causing much of a detonation problem if any at all. Plugs show no signs and the car is pulling hard. So i have to disagree with many that say AFC's suck. Unless detonation can occur, not leave a trace on spark plugs, and still blow up an engine, then maybe i will believe that afc's suck but for now my plugs look good. Granted i don't know my exhaust temps, i did retard timing a little but still withen Honda Specs, and i am using a btm set at 1\2 degree per psi. I don't get it, i guess afc's are no good like at much higher pressures causing det problems. I see it this way, i get to keep obd2 crap, so that it can operate all the other crap like the evap system. Maybe i am totally stupid!! :y

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

yeah stupid alright!!! convert to obd1 and get some real management

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

What is the point of this thread? Are you trying to prove that your AFC is a good way to go as far as engine management?

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Well, not really, i am trying to figure out where all the detonation is, I see none on my plugs. I read all the negatives about afc's. And now i am not seeing what all have said bad about them. Yes i understand that the afc will cause the ecu to advance timing, but with my p2t, i am trying to figure out how advanced i am getting. It is running a little rich but i have yet to go lean. I am trying figure out if i am missing something, maybe the injectors are jacked up and allowing more fuel through. Of course a programable ecu is better but if other stuff works, why not??

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

If it works for you then thats great.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

HERE IS MY BIG QUESTION!! IF I DON"T SEE DET ON THE PLUGS, DO I HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT DET PROBLEMS, or basically can i still cause damage to the engine with det thats not showing up on my plugs? I guess this is a stupid question. :1 <- me in hmt class in the corner

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

if you don't have any signs of detonation then you don't have detonation. lol. but make sure you are looking correctly and not ignoring signs of detonation

-Luke

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

I am keeping careful track of my plugs, taking pics as i go, i am also going to invest in one of those light/magnifine sparkplug checkers to see if that helps any. I have been to about every website on spark plug readings and talked to some racers from the track in my area. They agree with me not having det problems but these guys are driving all NA vehicles. This is where i get most of my answers cause i aint got no one else to ask. Thanks dude!!

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Have you used DET cans on your engine yet? Damn good way to find out.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

No not yet, i will make them soon and use them. Personally I would think that reading plugs would be the best way. Those are great tools too though!! :y

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Plugs are a good way, but don't limit yourself to one tool if you can afford it. Plugs only tell you after the fact. Different tools show different aspects of an engines operation, and some give you a lot more data to figure things out with. Wideband, datalogging, det cans,EGT sensors, plugs, etc..

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

reading plus is a pretty shitty way to watch out for detonation.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

How else are you going to hear, see, feel or whatever....when detonation is going to happen? Nothing is going to tell you before the fact...

You have to find where the knock limit of your particular motor setup is...and adjust fuel and timing accordingly.

Plugs are the best way to understand what is happening in the combustion chamber of a motor...

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Cool. Bad wording on my part.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Do explain!! Do you have anything to back this statement up? I like how so many put their two cents in but don't explain their point.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Its all good, thanks alot guys!! O0

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

Okay, so i have my wideband in now LC-1 and works pretty good, but i am still pullin plugs left and right to make sure. I have read most posts and with a chipped ECU the AFR suggested are around 14.7 idle, 13.5 or little richer with a load no boost and 12.5 or little richer with boost. So with an afc due to advanced ignition, Should i try to keep it right in those areas or make it alittle richer like high 11.7-12 afr with boost and maybe 13-13.3 load with no boost???

Right now i have it around 12-12.5 with 9 psi boost but still haven't seen any det. I am using a magnifine glass and a light and i am looking way down inside.

I spent 12 bucks today to make my det cans, i will let you know if they work out, they will be alittle different then the ones posted on the site to make.

Re: WHERE IS THE DETONATION??
 

I would throw a bit more fuel at it in boost.