Uberdata & Starting
05-19-2005, 11:54 AM
#11
1.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 949
Re: Uberdata & Starting
So I went out last night for more tuning and something weird happened that I didn't expect, but might explain this starting problem... 
While datalogging, I pulled over, shut the car off and then started it back up and when I did, UberData registered a cell or two of ratios closer to 0 PSI (in the 1st or 2nd RPM row) rather than out by -14 to -20 (where idle is supposed to be). So if I leave alone those first few cells for idle, the remaining up to 0 PSI still MIGHT affect startup. Kind of a retarded concept I guess, but that's the only explanation I can see so far. I guess I mean to say I shouldn't change anything up to 1,000 RPMs across the whole grid.
Anyway, had the bogging a little last night. It's not 1.8, but it seems like there should be some way to flatten out the map without getting this bogging poblem. I have some spikes, but there's dips too that doesn't seem quite right.
If the rain holds off, I'll be out again tonight terrorizing the countryside.
While datalogging, I pulled over, shut the car off and then started it back up and when I did, UberData registered a cell or two of ratios closer to 0 PSI (in the 1st or 2nd RPM row) rather than out by -14 to -20 (where idle is supposed to be). So if I leave alone those first few cells for idle, the remaining up to 0 PSI still MIGHT affect startup. Kind of a retarded concept I guess, but that's the only explanation I can see so far. I guess I mean to say I shouldn't change anything up to 1,000 RPMs across the whole grid.
Anyway, had the bogging a little last night. It's not 1.8, but it seems like there should be some way to flatten out the map without getting this bogging poblem. I have some spikes, but there's dips too that doesn't seem quite right.
If the rain holds off, I'll be out again tonight terrorizing the countryside.
05-26-2005, 09:37 AM
#14
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,008
Re: Uberdata & Starting
first, disable closed loop.
when i tune i tune out the idle portion and get that perfect before doing any other tuning. start over w/ a new basemap, set your tps enrich 10 over suggested and cold and normal to 5 over, eff at 120 or 130. crank the car w/ wideband and see where your vac is on the gauge and afr. if your engine is healthy and it's rich it probably won't be near 20 and you'll need to pull fuel out of the entire columns below 20inhg, at or near 20inhg and the next column above 18-16inhg (depending on how your table is set up). do the entire columns and not just portions of them to get it going.
then proceed to tune out part throttle vac maps at specific vac points 13inhg then 10ingh then 5inhg then 1inhg in those areas. it takes more time this way, but you get a much better transition going through the maps that way...keep tuning those areas by entire colums.
i then do the same thing at 1psi then 3psi to see how the maps look in boost. if it's richer than 13:1 i'll then take a pull through boost. if vtec, raise vtec to like 7krpm so you don't hit it and tune by rpm rows insead of columns...don't hit vtec and get the lo cam map tuned out afr wise. once you get lo cam tuned out look at the 2d maps for both locam and hicam and make sure they match near 4krpm...if they don't adjust the entire hicam map until they are close at at 4krpm. bring vtec down to 4krpm and start making full pulls. adjust fuel again by rpm row instead of columns in the hicam. once you get all that nice and flat overlap your last locam run and last hicam run. you'll see the point in which locam drops off and hicam pull up for the most power throughout the transition. raise vtec to that point or 100-200rpm below that. then make some more pulls adjusting fuel to flatten it all out. once you get that all nice start adding timing. you can use timing to help flatten out dips/peaks in the hp/tq curves, but be sure to keep an eye on afr because adding/subtracting timing can affect afr. get that where you want and you're done.
it takes a little longer that way, but you should have a nicely tuned car and the ability to keep closed loop disabled and just run off the maps for great partthrottle reliablility/transitions. a dyno definately helps doing this, but you can do it on the street too, but have a good long straight stretch w/o traffic.
hope that helps.
when i tune i tune out the idle portion and get that perfect before doing any other tuning. start over w/ a new basemap, set your tps enrich 10 over suggested and cold and normal to 5 over, eff at 120 or 130. crank the car w/ wideband and see where your vac is on the gauge and afr. if your engine is healthy and it's rich it probably won't be near 20 and you'll need to pull fuel out of the entire columns below 20inhg, at or near 20inhg and the next column above 18-16inhg (depending on how your table is set up). do the entire columns and not just portions of them to get it going.
then proceed to tune out part throttle vac maps at specific vac points 13inhg then 10ingh then 5inhg then 1inhg in those areas. it takes more time this way, but you get a much better transition going through the maps that way...keep tuning those areas by entire colums.
i then do the same thing at 1psi then 3psi to see how the maps look in boost. if it's richer than 13:1 i'll then take a pull through boost. if vtec, raise vtec to like 7krpm so you don't hit it and tune by rpm rows insead of columns...don't hit vtec and get the lo cam map tuned out afr wise. once you get lo cam tuned out look at the 2d maps for both locam and hicam and make sure they match near 4krpm...if they don't adjust the entire hicam map until they are close at at 4krpm. bring vtec down to 4krpm and start making full pulls. adjust fuel again by rpm row instead of columns in the hicam. once you get all that nice and flat overlap your last locam run and last hicam run. you'll see the point in which locam drops off and hicam pull up for the most power throughout the transition. raise vtec to that point or 100-200rpm below that. then make some more pulls adjusting fuel to flatten it all out. once you get that all nice start adding timing. you can use timing to help flatten out dips/peaks in the hp/tq curves, but be sure to keep an eye on afr because adding/subtracting timing can affect afr. get that where you want and you're done.
it takes a little longer that way, but you should have a nicely tuned car and the ability to keep closed loop disabled and just run off the maps for great partthrottle reliablility/transitions. a dyno definately helps doing this, but you can do it on the street too, but have a good long straight stretch w/o traffic.
hope that helps.
05-29-2005, 04:18 PM
#16
1.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 949
Re: Uberdata & Starting
Jesus... I do have V-Tec and how the HELL are you supposed to tune by RPM (i.e. Left to Right)?
Why do you tune by PSI with non-vtec & rpm with vtec? :P 
EDIT: I don't know about this... I read the part. throttle article on hondata and they suggest doing it by PSI, not RPM. I think I'm gonna go back to this tomorrow.
Why do you tune by PSI with non-vtec & rpm with vtec? :P
EDIT: I don't know about this... I read the part. throttle article on hondata and they suggest doing it by PSI, not RPM. I think I'm gonna go back to this tomorrow.
05-29-2005, 06:45 PM
#17
1.5 BAR
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,008
Re: Uberdata & Starting
when i tune by columns i'm holding it pretty steady at that point throughout the rpm range:
ex: get car and hold at 10inhg and slowly rev through entire rev range logging. do the same for 3inhg, 1inhg, and 15inhg, 3psi, etc. since you are holding realatively steady in those particular columns you are safe to tune the vac/boost column by itself.
once you see that it's tuned well that way, if it was safely rich in boost than take a full run wot w/o vtec. now you are going to tune rpm rows since you'll pass through the columns in specific rpm points. if you tune the rpm rows you are likely to get the point in which it passes through and it will be pretty close for the other columns as well since the columns are very similar, but more fuel in each one. by doing the rpm rows you are adjusting each column the same for that particular rpm.
w/ what you are asking you will tune the vertical columns for specific vac/boost values you hold it in, and that's only in vac and low boost while you're tuning the lo cam, but will change to left/right rpm rows when you are doing a pull that you aren't holding a specific load throughout the rev range.
i hope those two explanations helped. if not let me know and i'll do some screenshots to help illustrate if nec.
ex: get car and hold at 10inhg and slowly rev through entire rev range logging. do the same for 3inhg, 1inhg, and 15inhg, 3psi, etc. since you are holding realatively steady in those particular columns you are safe to tune the vac/boost column by itself.
once you see that it's tuned well that way, if it was safely rich in boost than take a full run wot w/o vtec. now you are going to tune rpm rows since you'll pass through the columns in specific rpm points. if you tune the rpm rows you are likely to get the point in which it passes through and it will be pretty close for the other columns as well since the columns are very similar, but more fuel in each one. by doing the rpm rows you are adjusting each column the same for that particular rpm.
w/ what you are asking you will tune the vertical columns for specific vac/boost values you hold it in, and that's only in vac and low boost while you're tuning the lo cam, but will change to left/right rpm rows when you are doing a pull that you aren't holding a specific load throughout the rev range.
i hope those two explanations helped. if not let me know and i'll do some screenshots to help illustrate if nec.
05-30-2005, 08:38 AM
#18
1.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 949
Re: Uberdata & Starting
Ummmm, yeah!
Holy ----. Here I'm like trying to drive down the road an d keep 1K RPM steady. ----.
I can hold the vertical columns fine, slowly adding pedal pressure to keep minimum load and hold the PSI.
So RPMs at WOT. That makes a lot more sense. Thank you.
Holy ----. Here I'm like trying to drive down the road an d keep 1K RPM steady. ----.
I can hold the vertical columns fine, slowly adding pedal pressure to keep minimum load and hold the PSI.
So RPMs at WOT. That makes a lot more sense. Thank you.
06-01-2005, 10:56 AM
#20
1.5 BAR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 949
Re: Uberdata & Starting
What's a good way to do the part. throttle?
Would I cruise on the freeway in 3rd or 4th (50 to 60 MPH) or on the street in 2nd or 3rd (25 to 35 MPH)? I was doing 2nd and 3rd slow ---- and was in the upper 14s in low vacuum (between -10 & -20) but when I got on the freeway, I was running upper 13s or 14.0 with almost no pressure on the pedal.
I'm kind of leaning towards the freeway, because I REALLY have to concentrate on sticking to the -20Hg column at low speeds. I would almost never hit the first 3 columns just driving around town.
Would I cruise on the freeway in 3rd or 4th (50 to 60 MPH) or on the street in 2nd or 3rd (25 to 35 MPH)? I was doing 2nd and 3rd slow ---- and was in the upper 14s in low vacuum (between -10 & -20) but when I got on the freeway, I was running upper 13s or 14.0 with almost no pressure on the pedal.
I'm kind of leaning towards the freeway, because I REALLY have to concentrate on sticking to the -20Hg column at low speeds. I would almost never hit the first 3 columns just driving around town.
