running lean (I think)
 

I have a crx dx with intake and exuahst with no cat. I changed the spark plugs and noticed they were white so I got new ones and they turned white too. I havn't noticed my car pinging but it's hard to hear over the exahust. Sometimes my car misses at low rpm and sounds like a machine gun but it only does this about 1 time every 2 months. Is there something I can do about this like removing a coolent sensor or something.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

What is your motor and is it boosted? What octane gas are you using? Check your timing. Most likely it is either your timing or you are being a cheap ass and using 87 octane. :-\
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

My car is not boosted yet. and i'm using 87 octane how's that make a difference

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Oh boy. :-X

Ok, I'll make this short.

The lower the octane rating, the more prone to detonation. Gas with a higher octane rating will be harder to detonate, which is what you are hearing. This is why we use race gas at the track. Assuming you know what detonation is, since you are using low octane gas and it is easier to ignite and pre-detonate. Timing may also play a part in this problem. Check it. It might be too advanced.
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

If it's a stock dx, the car is an econobox that was ment to run on 87 octane. Just retard the timming abit and it should be fine.

Stan

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Uh, all Hondas are econo-boxes(except for maybe the S2000).

They also say that the Ford V10 was made to run on 87 octane, but if you try it your motor will ping like a mother fucker.
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

first, check your spark plug gaps also. and yeah, retard the distributor. if your car isnt boosted, i wouldnt worry about the 87 octane you using.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

two possibilities. Your rings are shot and you have excessive blowby which is dumping oil into your intake. I think I might have this problem and it would cause you to ping. If this is the case, you are going to need to increase the octane/retard the timing regardless of what the engine in new concdition should take. Or you could install a catch can which is something I intend to try. Or your injectors are plugged and that is causing you to run lean. Try running a couple of tanks of fuel injector cleaner thru it and see if that helps. I hear running better gas (BP/Chevron, etc) helps keep them clean.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

I think my rings are good because my car doesn't smoke at all and doesn't use any oil

Re:running lean (I think)
 

don't use ---- gas.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

I was trying to tell him that, but everybody is saying 87 is good ----. Let's just completely rule out the possibility of the gas causing the problem. ::)

Are you thinking you are running lean because of the intake and exhaust you have? It takes a whole lot of motor work for a N/A Honda to require more fuel. If you are running lean, your fuel pump might be shot. Try spending an extra $2 at the gas pump next time and see what happens. ;)
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

thats what i'm going to do by next week i should be on empty so i'll put 91 octane in it and clean the spark plugs and see what happens

Re:running lean (I think)
 

i ALWAYS use 91 or 92 oct and in NA. Hell even my beater doesn;'t get crap ass 87, it's blessed w/ 89 ;)

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Same here, but my beater gets 91!! :o

One thing I just thought of, is the car smoking at all? I was thinking matbe it could be a head gasket. My friend has an Accord with a blown head gasket and every once in a while he vanishes in a huge cloud of white smoke. His car pings like a mother fucker. Check ther oil for water and the water for oil. Ya never know. Just a thought....... :-\
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

my car doesn't ping at all i don't think and it's not a head gasket because i just changed the oil. another problem that i forgot to menchon is it idles very low when it's warm like 300 rpm i can't beleive it can even run that low. my car does spit out black smoke when i'm driving it hard but i think that is normal

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Well, black would be gas so you are not running lean.

The head gasket doesn't have to leak water into the oil. It can leak anywhere. You don't seem to hear anything that you don't want to hear.

You said your car sounded like a machine gun earlier. Now it doesn't? WTF? You seem to rule out things too easy. It's always the thing you don't expect it to be. All well, good luck to you.
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

check your vacume lines

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Both the honda service center and others I've spoken with about this say NOT to put high octane gas in a civic. It just causes carbon to build up which WILL require 93 after a time not to detonate. Use the lowest grade you can without detonation. If your engine has a problem that requires you to run high octane to prevent pre-ignition, address the problem instead of merely changing the fuel. If you've got engine upgrades, adjust timing as well. If you have to run 93, ok, but it shouldn't be a knee-jerk thing. Honda Civics were not made to run on 93 or 91 stock and should run on less. My engine is crapping on me because of blowby I think. The intake mani is full of oil and crap and the pistons look pretty nasty, so until I get that fixed I've got to run 89 at least. But it is silly to tell every civic owner that they should run 93. instead of "crap"

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Ok, sure. You go ahead and put 87 octane in your turbocharged motor and blow the ---- out of it. I'll just run mine like it should be ran buddy. ::) On a brand new Civic from the factory you could get away with running 87 octane, but we aren't talking about a brand new motor here. We are talking about a very used motor which isn't in the best condition.

Are you seriously going to believe a Honda service guy? The major selling point on a Honda is economy. Of course he is going to tell you you can run cheap ass gas and get 50+ MPG without any problems.

I also tried to give him other suggestions, but he doesn't want to hear it. I didn't tell ALL Civic owners to run high octane gas, but obviously this guy has a problem and should consider at least trying a higher octane gas to see if it fixes his problem. It seems like he isn't going to go changing the rings or rebuilding the motor anytime soon.

For you to say that running premium gas is bad for your motor is ignorant. That's like saying changing the oil is bad for the motor. Whatever, I don't want to argue about this. You have "heard" all you need to know from the Honda service guy. ::)
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

EDITED for tone:"****************************" ...I don't have a turbocharged motor yet, and neither does the original poster. It isn't what I "HEARD" from a service zombie. Try a search on the internet for octane and carbon buildup and see what you find. This was in one of the first hits I found. See if maybe you can follow the logic...

"............Using a higher octane then necessary is not only a waste of cash but can cause build up deposits that your engine can't burn. Which will lead to needed to run this octane to keep it from dieseling (running after shutting off the ignition)in the first place. (Deposits form causing hot spots, and pre-igniting the fuel before the Spark plug is suppose to.)Called detonation or pinging.

Remember Higher octane gas actually burns SLOWER or cooler then lower octane fuels. Using this will cause the fuel that is not being burned to build up in your heads,valves,pistons, etc...... So the trick is not what you think is best,but actually matching the octane to what your timing, ignition, and engine can actually burn in the compression stroke.

So instead of doing your baby a favor by spending the extra cash on her, you might actually be causing more problems down the road."

OK, actually to say it burns "slower" isn't entirely correct, it just takes more heat to ignite it. Semantics. I'm no chemist, but you are refuting this based on what?

This is from the Federal Trade Commission http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.htm and basically is the same as what I posted earlier...

"Should you ever switch to a higher octane gasoline?
A few car engines may knock or ping - even if you use the recommended octane. If this happens, try switching to the next highest octane grade. In many cases, switching to the mid-grade or premium-grade gasoline will eliminate the knock. If the knocking or pinging continues after one or two fill-ups, you may need a tune-up or some other repair. After that work is done, go back to the lowest octane grade at which your engine runs without knocking.

Is knocking harmful?
Occasional light knocking or pinging won't harm your engine, and doesn't indicate a need for higher octane. But don't ignore severe knocking. A heavy or persistent knock can lead to engine damage."

Here is another hit...
"Simply adding higher octane gasoline can keep your car from knocking, but it may mask other problems like an incorrect fuel/air ratio, ignition system trouble, or too much boost. Ideally, the car's state of tune should work in conjunction with the proper fuel, rather than using high octane gas as a band-aid to cover up some other problem. It's often cheaper in the long run to determine the root cause of knock instead of switching to a more expensive high-octane fuel. On the other hand, tuning an engine for maximum power will often demand the added knock resistance of higher octane gas. Only by understanding how and why knock occurs, and the interaction between ignition, compression, fuel delivery, and the fuel itself can you reach the state of optimum performance."

Here is another...
"Gasoline Factors That Matter
The quality of gasoline and the additive package usually affect the rate of engine wear more than the octane rating. Basically what this means is that it matters more where you buy your gas than which grade you purchase.

Regular Unleaded Gasoline
The recommended gasoline for most cars is regular 87 octane. One common misconception is that higher octane gasoline contains more cleaning additives than lower octane gas. All octane grades of all brands of gasoline contain engine cleaning detergent additives to protect against engine deposit build-up. In fact, using a gasoline with too high of an octane rating may cause damage to the emissions system."

I'm sure nobody wants to see this post grow any more, so if you feel like it, do some research on your own before you make blanket statements to people with NA engines that they should just add premium instead fo fixing their cars. If you read my first post, I said he might need to use a higher octane as well as retarding the timing. But I also stated that it would be better to fix the actual *problem* that is requiring him to run higher octane to prevent knocking. When you call 87 "----" to use your terms, it sounds like octane is a fix-all that everyone should use if they love their car and it sounds like you have your head up your butt and need to reevaluate the facts. Do so, then call me ignorant. :o Are you a gasoline salesman or something? Hope this doesn't make you mad, but please think about it, unless you have "heard" all you need to from your imaginary friends :P.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

damn dude i like your post you got resoures to back up what your saying just like they teach us in school. so what is the machine-gun sound is it just the car missing or somthing

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Dude, I'd probably have to hear it, but from your description it does sound very much like knocking. When do you hear it? Engine hot or cold? Accelerating hard or at part/light throttle? What kind of rpms and engine load (hills, etc) when it happens? What is your timing set at? Give us more info to work with. Some pinging under a load is normal, not good, but normal. Heavy knock like it sounds like you are describing is very bad. All I can tell you is to give as much detail as you can. If your plugs are white, I'm pretty sure that signifies a lean condition. You are getting a little more air into your engine than stock. Even if the engine is in good shape, you might need to retard the engine slightly to make up for it. Running higher octane gas wouldn't be out of the question either. Dr. Boost could be right and it might not have enough mods to be running lean, but then why are your plugs white? I'm not a mechanic but maybe I can give you some ideas.

Try buying Chevron or BP or something like that for awhile since they are supposed to have better additives and see if that helps clean stuff up if you've got carbon buildup from driving hard. Or use some engine cleaner. This is my first bet.
Try retarding your timing a couple of degrees.
Since you are replacing them, try colder plugs
Make sure the cooling system is working properly to keep you from overheating. Flush your radiator if you haven't done it (I need to do this to :-[)
Try higher octane fuel for a while and see what happens.
If you are running lean, none of those things should help, they might keep you from knocking tho.
Injector cleaner/new injectors might help, or a fuel pump like someone said. It'd probably be hard for anyone to say much more without more details, me anyway.

For misfire, check plugs, wires, rotor, cap, etc.
Does it idle rough even after warming up, and is your power down? To me those would indicate a misfire.

I am having trouble seeing why it would be knock tho if you never ping. Even going up hills without downshifting? :-\ And the fact that it is so infrequent makes me wonder what it could be too. Wierd.

Oh yeah, and check your compression. It can tell you a lot about how healty your motor is.

Do some searches on plug misfire and knock and associated things on the net and see what you come up with.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

the machine gun sound is from the exuast at low rpm (about 1-3,000 rpm) it seems it does it more after i get done driving hard i did some research could it be pre-ignition?

Re:running lean (I think)
 

yeah. sounds like it. I just realized that you are probably pinging a lot and just can't hear it over your exhaust. I have stock, so this isn't a problem for me. That is where I'd most expect to hear knock -- in the low to mid rpm range. I've got the same problem since I went with the AFC and larger injectors for some reason. I need to get mine figured out too before I blow something. Mine just does it when it is cold, I assume because it is running lean until the cat warms up. That is my theory, but I have no idea if it is right. I know the ignition is being advanced too by the afc, and that probably isn't helping. As long as I let it warm up, it is ok. But mine pings a lot under load, and when I changed out the injectors I noticed the inside of the manifold was totally coated with nasty black crud, so I'm thinking I need a good cleaning bad. I need to find another compression tester that will actually fit the plug holes in the head so I can get started diagnosing. I want to rig up an oil catch can too. I'm not using a lot of oil really, but I'm not convinced blowby isn't a large part of the problem. The compression test will help. Either rings, or I'm thinking my intake valves must be in REALLY bad shape for the mani to look like that...

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Ok, if you will do me a favor and read ALL of my posts, I clearly stated that he should check his timing. I also stated that he should check his head gasket. He did not sound like he wanted to hear that. He quickly shot me down and ignored my help. Using a higher octane gas was not my only advise so stop saying that. Read the post before you make another comment like that. I assumed you had some experience in turbocharged engines and knew how important high octane fuel is in such an enviroment. Excuse me for giving you too much credit. Am I a gasoline salesman? Are you? I'm not the one with the gigantic summary of gasoline uses and engineering. As for my imaginary friends, what the ---- does that have to do with anything and where did that come from? Was that supposed to be a personal insult or something? Try harder next time because that was very weak.

Anyways, I never said anything about the octane being a "fix-all" for his engine problems. I simply advised him to try it and see what happens. Go ahead and re-read my posts now. He obviously isn't going to take the advise of anybody who tells him something he doesn't want to hear so I give up. Most people appreciate the help of others. I offered my help and it was ignored. ---- it. Good luck fixing the problems.

If you would like to argue with me any more, please use the PM feature so I can delete it and save myself, and any other members that have been subjected to this bullshit, the brain cells that would be lost. Thank you.

BTW, in your first post in this thread you recommended using higher octane gas as a fix:
Your second post was the complete opposite and contradicts your first post:
So why are you even arguing with me? It seems as though you jumped on my ---- for shits and giggles. Get off my nuts please.

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Re:running lean (I think)
 

I love that old stupid mith about 93oct. being better, haha..

My Mom used to tell me she got better gas milage using 93oct !!

The only way I would run 93' on a stock honda motor would be if it has nitrous sitting and waiting to be used.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Yes, you did say other things too, and yes I did mention octane. No I didn't mean that as a personal insult and I'm sorry you took it that way. I try to keep my insults to a minimum. I'm not here to start fights, but when you called me ignorant, that ticked me off a little. No I wasn't contradicting myself - just trying to present the "whole" truth as I see it. Half the truth doesn't do much good.

Using higher octane gas is one way to decrease ping/knock. Any idiot realizes that. I'm currently running 89 in a more or less stock civic. However, this is not the BEST way to keep a NA engine running well. I am not against 93 octane fuel, and if either he or I was boosted, I would say, "yes this is probably a necessity, and if you are pinging, you are stupid for trying to be cheap." But, to insinuate that "---- gas" was "causing the problem" is retarded. I just wanted him to realize that the gas is only a bandaid on his engine and that he should look further into what was actually causing it. since things that cause pinging can damage his engine even if it doesn't ping because of the fuel he is using. I never said he couldn't use higher octane to stop the pinging, as you quoted me, I said it probably would. However, I didn't want him to think that higher octane gas would fix his engine. I wasn't attacking all of the help that you were giving him, just that one simple comment that was actually made by someone else but which you seemed to support. And you wanted to jump all over that acting like I'm some sort of idiot with all your eye rolling and whatnot. That is all I'm saying on the topic. Your nuts? Grow up already. ::)

Moto, adding higher octane fuel for awhile IS one way narrow down what your problem might be. But it isn't the only, or even the best way. If you don't seriously want to get your hands dirty, or retard your timing any, it may be the only way to get your car to stop pinging. Otherwise, try some of the things I and others have mentioned, and if you are still stuck, keep asking around.

Re:running lean (I think)
 

Yeah, ok captain contradiction. Just drop the subject before you tell me to grow up. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :P (sarcasm)
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Re:running lean (I think)
 

Mine *appears* to be running lean as well. I has been detonating if I drive it before it warms up, and it pings worse than ever when I even get close to lugging it. I just installed the safc and some injectors. The plugs have always looked good before, but when I just pulled them to do a compression test, three were pretty white. #3 looked ok. The compression on the first two was 185, #3 was 175 and #4 was 195. That is (barely) within ok specs, so I think my rings, gasket, etc are in decent condition, unless all 4 are really low. What are the normal compression figures on a new/used honda engine, anyone know? I know running lean isn't the ONLY thing that can discolor the plugs that way, so I'm gonna have to check into it some more now... :(