how to tune timing?
 

what are the ways to tune timing, i know listening to the engine and pyrometer(EGT) does. Does the WB02 tune/say anything for timing as well? if so how? I do not have a knock sensor but i think i will be able to hear knock, and for the EGT doesn't that take a long time to tune with it since its electronic and temp changes slow? ohh one more thing what should the range of timing be in the high revs on vacum and boost, somehow i think the timing should be under 40 in vacum and under 25 in boost at high revs, correct me please.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

Tuning timing is really best done on a dyno. Some forms of knock are not audible but will show up in the power band on your torque line. Exact ignition timing depends on your motor size, dohc or sohc, available octane, amount of boost, temp of the charge air, and etc. It is really best left to do on a dyno. But u can see major detonation in the a/f readings if there are rapid spikes but then u should also be able to hear it and feel it very easily. Basically u want a nice smooth flat torque curve with decent afr's. After u get that u can just highlight the entire boost section and up the timing by .25 -.5 degrees at a time till ur either too scared to add in more or u start to see signs of detonation.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

You could also use a step retard that is dependant on the amount of boost. That would be a better idea.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

As stated above you will not be able to hear the detonation, so you cannot tune this way. But the best thing is to deffinitley get it done on the dyno. I usually don't go with a step retard just because I didn't get a chace to get a car on a dyno, I believe for smaller motors you should go with a little more advance and with larger displacement motors you can go with a little less, b/c of the heat dispertion maybe like (.9 vs .8) Someone might be able to clear this parts up a little more. It makes perfect sense to me though.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=272

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22

Some good links about timing...be prepared to read.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

a step retard is still a type of ign. 'basemap' so to speak, it's by no means a tuned ign. map and it will still need attention, but it's a better start than an overly conservative linear retard and will give you a better tip in to boost. as far as smaller and larger bore engine, you can run 'more' timing on larger bore because of the larger cylinder diamter. as far as tuning ign., there's a lot to it if you want to do it properly with the best results as far as power, but for begninning tuners, a good afr and mildly agressive timing map is a good goal ;)

Re:how to tune timing?
 

The larger bore is because there is more heat dispertion b/c of the area. Also you have to make sure your ignition is retarded at the motor's peak TQ. You can tell this by where the motor uses the most fuel. There will almost always be a big dip in the fuel tables, assuming that the map is tuned to a consistant A/F. Peak Tq usually happens right after peak fuel consumption, just something to keep in mind, when you are onthe dyno.

Oh and I do agree witht the step retard, but I am into running conservative untill I hit a dyno.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

smaller bore = smaller diameter = less distance for teh flame to travel before reaching the cylinder wall = less timing :P

Re:how to tune timing?
 

peak fuel comsumption and where your timing map should see its least amount of advance is generally at peak torwue for your motor

generally you take away a little fuel and add timing back in after peak torque.

Re:how to tune timing?
 

peak fuel comsumption and where your timing map should see its least amount of advance is generally at peak torwue for your motor

generally you take away a little fuel and add timing back in after peak torque.
You guys are just better with words. :P

Re:how to tune timing?
 

In addition to his statement and explaining mine a little more...you should use the ignition timing to keep your peak torque going as far as u can. The peak torque is the highest cylinder pressure that the combustion chambers will see. At the highest cylinder pressure the demands of your octane levels are at a maximum. If you aren't detonating at peak torque and the rest of your torque curve is even or falling below the peak torque then 9 times out of 10 you are not going to detonate. Increasing the ignition to go above the peak torque later in the rpms is where you should start to see detonation (assuming your peak torque is already getting close maxing out the octane. Also the longer you can keep peak torque going the more power you will be makin. I tested out my theories last night and i'm spinning tires from 4th gear rolls now. Hope this helps...still best left on a dyno tho

Re:how to tune timing?
 

Take a basemap with uberdata or something and use the standard 0.75 degrees per PSI. In my experience this is a lot for most turbo setups with ideal timing being closer to 0.30 degrees per PSI. This is dependant on IC, turbo and exhaust flow.

Go get a mazda knock sensor from a protege and screw it into any available threaded hole in your block. It will screw in. Hook that up to your laptop as a mic in. Plug in headphones and use the audio amp built in.

Personally I use a bandpass filter on the above setup but that is enough to hear the onset of knock. Something interesting is that as the RPMs go up above 4500 or so Honda doesn't advance the ignition anymore. There is power to be made - even on an NA setup. More on a boosted setup.

Be aware as you advance your ignition you need to add more fuel. For every 5 or so degrees this works out to 1-2 increments on uberdata.

I would recommend tuning without boost so you can get used to this setup.

-Michael