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How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
I have heard that MSD's BTM does not work very well with the 450 /AFC hack.(due to more low end timing advance) If this is true how bad is it and is a BTM good enough for a FMU/fuel Pump setup. Any help would be greatly appretiated!!!!! I really wanted to go SFC or SMC+ but since i cant chip my ECU for timing retard i need to know that a BTM will work or else i must go the crappy FMU route.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
bump please help
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
I don't see why it wouldn't work. What are you worried about timing in the low end for? The btm will retard the timing enough by the time you hit the top end. You shouldn't need to retard the timing on the low end. So, do you have a AFC or any kind of fuel management yet? I would avoid the whole Vortech fmu deal. That is just ghetto IMO. Why not run the fpr vac line through the cab and squeeze it when you hit boost? That would save you $75 for the FMU ;)
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
well i plan on buying a smc+ and 450dsms or a AFC and 450 dsm's as soon as i can confirm that if i buy a BTM i will be able to get the timing issue straight. I really want to buy the stuff now but i dont want to buy it a then have to go a whole different route because my timing is messed up. Only reason i was worried was because i was about to give the smc+ and 450's a go when i heard that with the hack timing needs to be controlled by more than a BTM. I think it was the moderator Joseph that said this but i am not sure.
-Ty |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
The BTM is adjustable. You can make it retard your timing to the point of stalling if you want it to. Just turn it up a bit more than most people if you are worried about it. I don't use a BTM. I just retarded the timing a little. No worries.
BTW I would get the S-AFC over the SMC. Thats just my opinion though....... __________________ Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
I'm pretty much in the same position as you. I know the BTM only retards timing when it sees boost and you can adjust the ratio like 1 degree retard per pound of boost, 2 degrees per pound, so before you make boost, like at idle, it will not change the timing. The problem with the afc hack is that when you cut the voltage from the map sensor ( thats what leaning out the afc does) the ecu also advaces the timing. The only fix I've heard for this is to get the ecu chipped with a retarded ignition map. Thats where I'm at now trying to find out how to do this, I can install a chip but I'm not really sure how to burn one. So
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
SEE THAT IS WHAT I REMEBERED. i mena i know all about the BTM i understand how it works. The problem is that aparently like he says te hack actually advances timing before the car even sees boost rendering the BTM useless. Man this blows casue i have an OBD2 accord not easily chipped :(. I guess i have to change to OBD1? will i lose anything going to OBD1?
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Well unless i can use the knock sensor and fool it so it retards timing before boost. that might be a good plan actually but how would i go about this. It is perfectly logical but not sure how i could do it.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
BTM retards based on pressure above atmospheric... so you get a couple degrees knocked off your total timing at, say, 4 psi... when you are running the AFC hack at 4 psi you are 10 degrees advanced of FMU w/ check valves at 4 psi is the whole problem. You knock 2-3 degrees off with the BTM, but you are still ~7 degrees advanced.
Dropshop got the setup - AFC and BTM - to work GREAT. He had mutant torque coming in very low in the rpm range, on a high mileage engine, with complete reliability. He also did a lot of tuning by wideband, had an EGT, and had a pretty good grasp on tuning theory. AFC and BTM works - but if you aren't wholly confident that you are "the man" and want to lay your engine on the line to prove it, then it's not for you. Besides, a chip burner is much cheaper than a BTM, and people start looking cross eyed at you because you can chip ECUs. ;) |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
would i be able to chip my OBD2 with a burner. Did you read what fork said about the andanced timing before boost? I mean i have pepole keep explaining to me how a BTM works and i have known how it works before i started this thread. If you say somone has gotten it to work i might try it anyways if i can chip my ecu. If i could chip my obd2 where would i get the Burner? thanks for all the help guys!
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Doesn't Uberteg do that stuff? Is he still around here? I know he is selling those things like crazy on Honda-tech. I don't believe he can chip OBD2 though.
Maybe I am not understanding this whole situation. Ok, lets say his timing is advanced 10 degrees with the S-AFC. His BTM is set for 3 degrees retard per pound of boost. Then at 4 psi he would be 2 degrees more retarded than when not under boost. Why wouldn't this work? Is it because of the AFC still???? I'm confused as to why you say this won't work. You can still turn the retard up more per pound of boost and that would not affect anything while not under boost. __________________ Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Ya you are not quite grasping it the problem is not while under boost the problem is that the AFC hack is rumored to ADVANCE the timing at IDLE, NO BOOST. The BTM retards timing based on boost. I think this is not that big of problem but i have seen someone post that it is at least one worth mentioning. I hope you see what i am talking about now. THanks for having the patience to help me out man! Ya if i had obd1 it would be no problem.
-Ty |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
I think im with dr. boost on this one... whats wrong with advanced timing at idle under no boost? besides maybe a lopy idle?
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
www.batronix.com has info on eeprom burners, I don't know anything about it. and the afc has to keep upping the trickery of the map sensor, so it keeps upping the timing, and the btm wouldn't compensate enough in my understanding, but I don't know from experience, just what I think.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Anton maybe you should read first ..but a BTM will not retard timing at idle. I am not as worried about timing under boost but as honda16hb said even then sometimes btm is not good enough. I realize that my best option is chipping bu since i am OBd2 i will be pressed to find a way to chip mine.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Ahhhhh, ok, but why are you worried about timing at idle? It won't harm anything. It might even make your car run better and get better gas mileage. Turn the btm to 3 degrees per pound and your set.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
thanks dr.boost i guess 450's here i come!
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Nice. I think there is a set in the classified section for REALLY cheap!!! Go check that out.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Yeah they are on ebay. $41 right now. I would talk to Rolla1990 for a deal. You will still need an injector box though. Probably around $25.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
From what i have heard the afc advances your timing all the way to redline. The btm reduces the advancing when it sees boost but only a max of 3 deg. That still leaves the timing advanced 6 to 7 degrees and i thought that when you boost you want to retard the timing. (that is what the btm is really supposed to do not just fix the afc) I think that is correct. So that still leaves with 7deg of advanced timing which is not good. I was wondering if you can retard the timing with the distrubutor? If anybody can correct me please do.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
From what i understand the BTm can pretty much retard the timing enough once under boost but before boost the timing needs to be retarded a little and the btm can not handle it. IN most cases it seems like the BTM works fine but then i hear people saying they are not that great. Best thing to do is chip your ecu so that it will retard timing but it is too hard to get my ECU chipped.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Originally Posted by Keehnel1414
From what i have heard the afc advances your timing all the way to redline. The btm reduces the advancing when it sees boost but only a max of 3 deg. That still leaves the timing advanced 6 to 7 degrees and i thought that when you boost you want to retard the timing. (that is what the btm is really supposed to do not just fix the afc) I think that is correct. So that still leaves with 7deg of advanced timing which is not good. I was wondering if you can retard the timing with the distrubutor? If anybody can correct me please do.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
How do you retard the timing with the distrubutor?
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Your timing at idle is the same, but the stretching effect of the AFC hack places your peak ignition advance (which is in the middle of your maps in a NA car) right at transition into boost. Your problem is your ignition CURVE, so the linear retard of a BTM can't really compensate. If you want to run 8-10 psi, you can get your final timing where it should be, but you pass through a lower boost area with very high ignition advance.
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Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Your timing at idle is the same, but the stretching effect of the AFC hack places your peak ignition advance (which is in the middle of your maps in a NA car) right at transition into boost. Your problem is your ignition CURVE, so the linear retard of a BTM can't really compensate. If you want to run 8-10 psi, you can get your final timing where it should be, but you pass through a lower boost area with very high ignition advance.
I don't understand any of this. Can you explain this in lammens terms? Thanks for the help |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
Lamens terms:
When the distributor fires the spark plug in relation to the position of the piston is the timing. Advanced timing can usually give a couple of horsepower, but timing that is too advanced can cause detonation or pinging, which is bad. This is what all the people in this thread have been trying to avoid. Detonation is when the piston is still traveling up but the gas mixture ignites trying to forces the piston down which doesn't happen. It creates hot spots on the piston and can eventually blow chunks out of the pistons, litterally. To retard the timing you can loosen the three bolts that hold the distributor on and turn it back. Hope that clears it up for some people. I know most of the people here know all this but it's for the inquisitive minds of the new people who were asking. |
Re:How bad is a BTM with the AFC HACK? Please help!!
When the distributor fires the spark plug in relation to the position of the piston is the timing. Advanced timing can usually give a couple of horsepower, but timing that is too advanced can cause detonation or pinging, which is bad. This is what all the people in this thread have been trying to avoid. Detonation is when the piston is still traveling up but the gas mixture ignites trying to forces the piston down which doesn't happen. It creates hot spots on the piston and can eventually blow chunks out of the pistons, litterally. To retard the timing you can loosen the three bolts that hold the distributor on and turn it back. Hope that clears it up for some people. |
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