Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

Okay you guys are pissing on me for the missing link deal. Fine Fine Fine, here is one better.

I am 90% finished my design of a VTEC controller, Electronic Boost controller, Missing Link, and AFC all in 1 package. The only catch is the the AFC is not tunable across the RPM band. the same setting will be applied across the whole RPM band, this is to be used with upgraded injectors.

Features
VTEC: allow you to adjust your VTEC engangement at any RPM
Electronic Boost controller: Includes boost soleniod, set your boost level instantly with a turn of a dial.
Missing link: limits the output of the MAP voltage seen by the ECU to 2.75 volts( civic) or higher depending on the car.
AFC: trims the MAP voltage by a user set percentage across the RPM band, to be used with upgraded injectors.
Turbo Timer: I might include it if i have the time.

There is no Digital display, so you have to play with the dials or use a voltmeter to get the right settings.

My system uses the MAP sensor to read the boost level, it will work with a stock civic MAP sensor, with a 2 bar map sensor it might have problems. But I can make one for a 2 bar map sensor.

Anyways when I tally up the materials and labour I think I will charge about 115-150 USD for it. BTW I am not selling anything yet, so MODs please do not delete this because you think I am selling it now. When I am ready to sell them I will clear it with you guys first.

pics will come probally next week. it will be a black box 8cmx3cmx5cm with 4 dials (VTEC, MAP scalar (AFC), Map Cutoff (limiter), Boost level controller) as well as 4 leds to signal; stock VTEC activiation ( From ECU), Current VTEC engagement, if MAP has reached cutoff, and Wastegate OPEN). The device is to be mounted in the car so the driver can change their setting instantly even when the car is running.

So with My Device, no more; fishtank valves, FMU, or Manual boost controller. Well actually a Manual boost controller or a cutter valve is recommened, it can be used to set the Max boost level of the Electronic boost control system so that if catastrophic electronic failure occurs the wastegate will open based on the Manual boost controller (Or cutter Valve) setting. The Manual boost controller is only used as a saftey precaution, it will probally never be relied upon,but better safe than sorry. You guys can pick up a cutter valve at homedepot or I might include one for like 10 bucks more.

Anyways that is my rant for today. I am working on a Digital version with a nice LCD display and AF tunability for every 100 RPM increment. It will display; RPM, boost level, AF setting, Vtec Setting, throttle position ect... etc.... It will pretty much be a nicer looking version of my current device except you can fine tune the AF settings based on RPM and Throttle position. But this will cost more because it requires much more work and much more expensive components.

Oh yeah I came up with a name for my current device; FullBAR VAFCBCT (Vtec-Air Fuel Controller-Boost Controller-Turbo Timer), I know it is a mouthful, any better suggestions. Oh yeah I am gonna name my brand of stuff "FullBAR" as is Full Barometer with conitations to FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition) eith that or "Norice" as in "No Rice" but pronounced "Noris". Anyways give me some feedback on this stuff. I am gonna try to get a unit to the Head guy at HMT for him to test and vouch that my stuff works and is a killer deal.

Now I gotta get back to work.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

once again we here at hmt prefer knowledge to product. I can make an afc that only scales once, not per rpm, myself with only $10 in radioshack equipment, if anyone wants to know how just pm me and I'll get you the info.

the only reason I would consider buying this is due to the vtec thing because I have no idea how to do that, but $100-150 is out of the hmt budget, unless you get that afc based on tp and by 100 rpm. goodluck with this, I know it doesn't sound like it but I wish you well. If you could just build an rpm activated switch (the same idea as the adjustable vtec activation) I would be interested in buying a few if they were set at a fair price.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

yeah you can get a simple voltage divider for the MAP,but you would still get a CEL light at anything over 6 psi (if you are running -40% across the board). My design is a proper mixed analog design (mixed meaning digital and analog together). It has proper buffering stages to protect from thermal drift and voltage fluxuations. There is simple and there is elegant, my design is elegant, your design is simple.

I spent alot of time on my design, I am an electrical engineer from a prestigious university, so i know how to design. I would like to make a bit of money on my design so that I can have the funds to develop better products. If i can get support on this stuff, my future products will blow everything out of the water. Yes I am looking to kill hondata and any other stand alone fuel management system, but that is in the future.

Besides the most expensive piece of equipment in my design is the boost controller circuit and the boost soleniod. My price includes a boost soleniod. 115-150 just for an electronic boost controller with soleniod is still cheaper than a brand name Manual boost controller and atleast half the cost of a brand name electronic boost controller.

All the rest of the features are just gravy ontop of the electronic boost control feature.

So give me a break.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

well man, honestly, all of this is really great, but you just keep posting talking about your ingenius electrical devices, i mean, just update one of your other threads or something, they're all starting to look/sound the same. honestly, these threads are worthless until you have done some beta testing with a finished product.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

sorry if my previous post was a bit spiteful. But from the very start all I wanted was input, if some tunability across the rpm band is a must then I can incorporate limited tunablity, if the price is too high then I can lower the price and redisgn using a cheaper approach. Honestly in materials 5the costs about 50 bucks (remeber I include a boost soleniod) so if i charge 115 I am making 65 bucks. Plus I will donate a portion of proceeds to HMT. So there is the long and short of it. Anyone who wants to piss on me is welcome to. But I would perfer that people give me input and advice rather than just saying I am robbing them. Remeber I spent countless hours and bought alot of stuff for initial testing and design, must of been well over 200 bucks worth of stuff just to get to this stage.

So now please tell me what price i should charge? You want me to give away my design for free? well then in the future I will when I have a better design done, but considering the complexity of my design it would not be worth it for anyone to make it themselves.

Please compare my price to what is out there, feature for feature I can not currently match them %100, but I can offer much more value.

Vortech FMU: $100
cheapest Electronic Boost control system: $250
RPM activated VTEC switch: $50
cheapest AFC: $150
Greddy missing link: $50

Compare what I offer with what is out there. Intel CPUs are just $1 worth of silicon and maybe $20 bucks worth of metals but no one pisses on them for charging $500 per CPU, it is not the materials but the design that you pay for. In the end you get what you pay for.

Please give me feedback that is all I want, do not piss on me and say you can design something better for cheaper because unless u are an experienced mixed analog designer you are in no position to do so.

So in the end I am making about $65 bucks at $115 each unit, For every unit sold to HMT members I will donate $5 bucks to HMT and another $5 to pgmfi and maybe some to TurboD16 because honestly PGMFI and turboD16 offered me much more support than HMT does, without PGMFI I would not know ---- about jack. Afer all the donations I will net about 50 bucks from each sale.

Salut

Alan To

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

I have already tested alot of the stuff on my civic, I am at the stage of finalizing my design and doing PCB layout.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

well, i would say that tunability throughout the rpm band woud be a must. really, i think it's great what you have done, and in my opinion, the price is very reasonable. the only advice i have to you is when it is all finished. take some pics and do a full write up on features, tunability, user friendliness, etc., etc. then i'm sure they will say if they are as good as you claim they are, and with a donation of 5$ for every sale, i'm sure you'll have a sticky for a long time ;)

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

I understand you better now. for some input for you:

nobody here needs a missing link if they have an afc, they go against each other so you could remove the afc from your design. Will the knobs be marked? such as with boost numbers on the boost controller? If you would include a display, even if it's simple it would make the market for these much bigger and I could see the price going up a little as well. when do you plan on having a finished product?

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

okay okay,

I just did a redesign, for the afc portion.

here is my tunability

RPM Setting
0-3k A
3k-4k b
4k-5k c
5k-6k d
6k-7k e
>8k f

so below 3k it is the same setting, between 3k and 7k setting for each 1000xrpm, after 8k same setting.

is this enough resolution? is the same setting form 0-3k rpm okay?
feedback would be great.

Also seeing as that most people are not too crazy about electronic boost control, i will leave it out of the core design, i will also leave vtec out of the core design and also the turbo timer out of the core design.

so an AFC adjustable by 1000x rpm between 3k-7k @ $65
vtec option @ +$10
electronic boost control option @ +$15
boost soleniod @+ $40

now please give me feedback on prices and on the afc tunability requirement.

There is no display, the unit is a black box 8cm x3.5cm x 5cm. There will be Tunable resistors for each 1000xrpm setting (<3k,3k,4k,5k,6k,7k,>8k), there would be no real way know to exactly what your settings are unless you reference the position of the tunable resistors.

For the VTEC option another tunable resistor will be added.

for boost control option another resistor will be added.

I will add labels to each dial indicating what they are with one of those brother ptouch label makers.

on paper I have the new design 90% done, please give me feedback ASAP.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

whoops, I meant to say to remove the missing link from your design, not the afc.

I still think that the cost is a little up there. With a design this simple where the user has to do so much of the work in tuning it (figuring out where to put the knobs and what not) it should be cheaper. If you could figure out and mark all the knobs that would justify the price since more work has gone in. remember: we're all a bunch of cheap asses here.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

i think id rather see a setting for 0-1k and then another for 1-3 or something like that (some people build a lot of boost before 3k especially on the highway)...also, you wont know what your settings are?...explain that more please...basically, minus the other options, you are building the smc

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

okay,

considering everything, I have decided to abandon the analog AFC. I am going to go digital, I should of went that route in the first place but only recently have I gotten the right microcontroller. tis a bit of a pitty though, there is alot more art in analog design than programming a Microcontroller. Anyways here are the new specs i am shooting for.

tunable across the entire rpm band to 10k by 100rpms and by every 1% of the TPS.
2x16 backlight LCD display.
vtec activation control
Digital electronic boost control
I am even going to do Retarding based on Map voltage. Yes retarding, I will even do retarding based on boost.
---- I will even throw in control of an extra injector
I might do dataloggin but the EEPROM on my microcontroller is tiny, so it will depend on how well the flash memory works.

Displays:
Current Boost
AFC settings @ current RPM
vtec engagement @ current RPM
timing retarding @ current RPM
Current RPM
Current AF ratio
extra injector on/off

I am putting all this ---- on chip because well the Micro controller runs at 20MHz and has 8 A/D and another 20+ digital input/output pins. It would be a pitty not to use the thing to its full potential.20 Mhz may not seem like much these days but consider that 10000 RPM only translates to 166.6667 hz, so the microcontroller is almost overkill for auto applications. If you guys are so crazy about tunability just for spite I might make it tunable by every 50th rpm using the EEPROM memory or use the flash memory and make it tunable for every RPM.

Anything else I can include? Now would this be worth atleast $150 bucks? honestly I do not wanna undertake this project for fun, it is quite a task but if the financial reward is there then I will definitely do it.

BTW how does the TPS come into play with typical AFCs, from what i read the TPS and MAP have practically a 1:1 relationship, does APEXI use the TPS for anything other than display?

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

for a high/low throttle transition...i have an smc that does not have this, and it creates some driveability problems fyi

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

huh? I am confused

if i scale the MAP voltage by a % of the TPS would that be enough?

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

maybe im retarded or something....whats the point of this when there are programs like turboedit and uberdata and such?

How much just for the EBC? Dual Setting EBC would be nice....especially for like $40 or something.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

AFC are less hassle and arguably more straight forward, and allow you to do adjustments on the fly. Less of a learning curve and you do not have to muck around with a burner. Plus The rom editors are not compatable with all ODB systems. But overall I agree that a AFC alone is a bit less capable than a well programmed ECU. But if your did AFC and retarding together then AFC should approach the level of a well tuned ECU, but the ECu would still be better. As long as we are talking about what is the best of the best, that would be an upgraded ECU, old honda ECUS must have only a few K of memory, maybe a few thousand operating points are in memory, the rest they just linearly interpolated. Look at state of the art computers, we have cheap ass computers for dirt cheap with 256Megs Ram and CPUS that are in the Ghz. honda ECUS probally have a hard time breaking the Mhz barrier in comparision. Hondata and other systems are not much better, still into the Mhz range with only a few thousand data points in memory. Really my final goal is to use a commercial computer to run my car. But then you have to deal with the computer crashing which would kill the car, but I have a solution for that. Think about it, creating a standard hardware platform for Cars. I am not talking about OBD platform, it is not standard because I can not use my ECU in a toyota. Everyone can tune as they please through software. people can swap C libraries, algorithims, run commercial type mathematical tools to run their car. How bout using cubic spline instead of linear interpolation, how about not needing interpolation because you can store the entire fucken fuel map in ram down to 0.00001 rpm, and have a thousand more on your hard-drive. Haltech charges like 1700 USd for a shitty ECU, for 250 bucks I can get a AMD xp with 256 megs ram and a 30 gb hard-drive. what needs to be designed is a good D/A system and also some hardware/software needs to be designed to protect the car when the blue screen of death appears.

People are so content to pay a few hundred bucks for the extra 4k of EEPROM memory that the hondata system provides. If you charge people a resonable price for standardized hardware and leave it up to tuners to create algorithims and software then everyone should be happy. Honestly I do not call hacking bins and hex files really creating anything of momentum. In the end there is not standard ROM to hack or microcontroller to hack, there just is not enough of base support. Look at unix, see how much of a grass roots support there is for it, why can there not be such support for cars? there should be, even laptops are standardizing their designs. Yes using a 2 GHz AMD processor is super overkill for a car, but ---- would you rather be paying 200 bucks for a 2 GHZ cpu or 1750 for a 4 MHZ cpu? you pay 1750 not for the hardware but for the ---- inside (program), if you have an open platform you will end up getting software from free from other tuners. You pay for what the hardware is really worth.

Sorry I am just off on a tangent, but I am a bit pissed that people here are giving me ----, in the end I am trying to bring more value to the table through designing of an AFC. yes I am looking to make a few bucks, but in the end you pay less and get more.


40 bucks for a EBC is perfectly doable, if people were willing to pay $40 i would make a tonne of them. But you would have to buy your own boost soleniod. I could do the soleniod plus electronics for about 60-75 bucks, if you guys are interested I can do that, dual setting, triple setting, whatever setting. As long as people desire it i can pretty much do it. But just 1 guy saying that he wants it is not enough.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

I think that your hopes are too high. Tunability for every rpm and every % of the tps is overkill, we don't need to tune down to that precision. If you can get everything you plan on into a unit with a digital display for $150 and it all works and is easily tuned then it will be the greatest thing I've seen for the price.

I'm sure a few people would be interested in the ebc, but I don't know how many, you would just have to ask, wait, and see. If you need someone to test this out for you I would be willing to try, but keep in mind my car is non turbo right now.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

i would be very interested in an ebc...would it be boost in stages or would it be truly adjustable?....for the 60-75 you mentioned, a group buy would work well imo...let me know and ill test one for you once i build my new manifold

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

What family of microcontrollers are you contemplating on?
Converting digital to analog is easy using PWM, the hard part is filtering it to pure DC for sensor inputs, well it requires the right lowpass filter and an output buffer to keep the filter consistent.
What kind of idea did you have for the boost control? a trianglewave oscillator and a comparator or digital stuff?
I also thought about running my car off one of my old laptops and a parallel port interface, but I did not want to have to wait for it to boot up to be able to start the car, and the idea of depending on a hard drive in a vibrating thermocycling highly moist environment didn't sound like such a good idea.
I personally don't like piggyback units much, sucks to be limited by the oem ecu in any way, boost cut, rev cut, error correction and stuff, many even calculate the cranking pulsewidth entirely from coolant temperature (means your car is hell to start with huge injectors, needs tricks like triggering flood clear mode after cranking for a couple seconds), and don't forget that attenuating airflow/MAP signals advances up your spark timing too, requiring correction on that.
Piggyback units are good for "marginal" changes in my opinion, but they'll never be as good as standalone management systems.
Either way it's nice to see people who refuse to pay a load of cash for flashy junk from Apexi.
It's a boring fact that OEM ECUs are loaded with very lousy programs to make power, they're all about sacrificing some power for emissions, keeping the catalytic converter in the right temperature range, etc.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

okay what about this,

do 3 d mapping for the AFC:
Vmap_out=f(Vmap_in,RPM)

and do 3d mapping for timing based also on MAP and RPM

basically you remap the fuel and timing externally.
these setting would be super imposed onto the existing ECU fuel and timing maps, tunning a in 3d would be with respect to your existing fuel and ignition maps? basically all you would have to do is tap your MAP sensor, RPM sensor and the ignition output from the ecu. should work for any model ECU.

I know it is not the best approach because you can not take into account much of the stuff happing inside the ECU during closed loop, but during open loop when it really matters it should work like a charm.

well orginally the boost controller was done using a comparator so was the vtec activation, add some opamps and some caps with a few resistors plus some voltage regulation circuitry and bam you got it. I was gonna use Analog electornics to also do the AFC thing, but in the end it would of been a nightmare to look at. I would of need 8 tunable resistrs per 1000 rpm, plus 1 for vtec plus another one for EBC. It just would of not been an elegant approach, so I am now going digital, but I wanna build more than an AFC which is why I am goning to make a piggy back unit to remap the fuel and timing.

oh I have another question, using a normal af meter your readings swing wildly up and down, is it becuase during the compression stroke the af meter reads mostly 02 and during the exhasuast stroke the meter reads the "real" af of the mixture? if this is the case, reading the af at certain degrees after tdc should yeild much more coherent readings right? BTW what the ---- is "scramble boost" i read it as one of the features in the fancy EBC?

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

The O2 sensor voltages swing up and down mainly due to the ECU swinging the mixture up and down using the sensor as a reference, under full throttle it should stay consistent, swinging under part throttle.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

I had some bomb ass garlic shrimp tonight.. ---- I wish ----- tasted that good.

-CF

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

that's just amazing porche

how far along is the design of this thing? when can we expect a finished product?

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

umm how far along?

umm i just got the lcd display working and i am working on the a2d converters right now, then gotta get the d2a converters to work. i have a nice holiday break starting on wendesday hopefull by this weekend I will have pics of just the AFC with boost control and Vtec up and the unit working.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

is the vtec activation just an rpm switch? if it is I would like to buy just an rpm switch so I can make a shift light since I keep overrevving.

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

major props on the EEng, I'm working on a MEng right now so I have no clue what you're talking about.
However you might want to consider cranking out a lower priced EGT gauge that works with a wideband o2 sensor.
If you could make these things for just shy of 100 dollars you could make a killing since most people tun on the street here(dyno time is too expensive) and a EGT allows for near perfect tuning on the street the only problem is they cost 200-300 bucks a pop.

EGT= Exhaust Gas Temperature Gauge.

When hooked to a wideband O2 sensor a person can monitor their exhaust temps and determine if the fuel mixture is too lean/rich.

a stock o2 sensor only reads like 13-15 a/f but a typical turbo a/f is like 12:1, so standard ebay a/f gauges don't work for our cars when tuning a boosted honda.

If you could either come up with an EGT and wideband setup, OR even better a digital a/f gauge and wideband(so we don't have to guess as EGT'S) then that would help alot of tuners out. The only options we have to tune with are dyno tuning(costly) an egt(good but just as costly) and general trial and error.

here's a few links with expected prices for what WE should pay for electronics:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2450429904

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2451261208

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2450070766

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2451137358

this doesn't have to be worked into the car's electronics at all, just an additional, accurate o2 reading is all, the stock o2 could be kept in the car's system. This would greatly help people who already have afc's but can't afford the dyno tuning of 400 bones on a little black box.

goto www.widebando2.com to check out the other faqs and stuff.http://www.diy-wb.com/02info.htm

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

done and done.
tunablility per 100 rpm up to 10000 rpm. Displays absolute intake pressure.

Vtec activation, Electronic boost control, 5th injector control, AF sensor display, ability to save 10 different af sets of settings coming shortly.

here are links to my design and pics of the lcd in operational mode and in the AF setting mode. The whole thing looks like ass right now. better quality pics will be coming shortly for now please enjoy

http://photos.yahoo.com/toalan2001

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

how long do you think it will be till the finished product i want to get one

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

umm i want to enable incorporate the flash upgradeability into it so People can upgrade the unit for free when I develop new features. Honestly it will take me another month to complete all the programming and maybe another month to migrate to a production design. So do not hold your breath, I want to make sure this is worth your hard earned money before I release it. There are just so many features I want to incorporate, I have a full time career so I can only do so much. I am glad you guys are receptive to it.

Salut

Alan To

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

how many wires will we need to hook up in our cars for this to work? what price do you plan on offering it at? will it come with the solenoid to control boost?

Re:Cheap VAFC, Boost Controller + (Turbo Timer)
 

This project is currently put aside. I am working on a wideband reader now. I will continue the AFC once the WB reader is done. I was going to include a boost soleniod, butit would probally be better offered as an extra instead of part of the base unit. it would take as many wires as an Apexi unit would, however many wires they use. Things are 90% complete. the price I am looking to offer just the AFC for is about 129 $USD, I have no idea, probally somewhere in that ballpark.

Things are going well on the WB o2 meter, I would post up pics but there is really nothing to post as of yet, no one could make heads or tails of what I have so far. Once I have the LCD done for the WB o2.