NEW FORCED INDUCTION SYSTEM!!!!11
06-05-2006, 02:30 AM
#31
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Re: NEW FORCED INDUCTION SYSTEM!!!!11
Yea I have seen the Rotrex, damn expensive, plantary Gear Drive, medium sized wheel. Their is a guy in town that fits them to custom Harleys. Yea Rotrex started out being fitted to BMW quite a while back, then HKS had some units stamped with their name on the housing for the 350Z. They still run a internal ratio via the plantary drive.
Most centrifugal units average a 4:1 internal ratio, then of course the external crank to Supercharger pulley. If you only needed 30K at 6k thats only a 5:1 ratio, thats nothing. Again thats why I was trying to find more information. Wynjammer units work, s10 guys love em, same with the TBI GM crowd, mustangs and Ford trucks, must be something to it. That is what makes it hard to decide if its BS or not. If Wynjammer made a kit for the Infiniti I would probably jump on it, cause I have seen one up close, and my friend has been running his for over a year with year problems.
No turbo or supercharger on this car yet. I did the turbo thing on my Bug, My GTI and My old Camry. Not new to turbos, like I said in the begining, was looking for information. Other than the attitude these bdt guys through at one of you anyone got more to go on?
I cant say I like the price either. I do like the idea of easy install and low heat for more power at low boost.
Whatever, the hard choice is turbo or supercharger. ---- I might just say screw it and do the twin turbo swap from a 300Z. Or some ---- like that.
I like to do the research before I start a project and thats where I am at. But hell Im not hurting for boost, I got a crazy *** minivan - yea minvan hahaha its a dodge caravan, Started from the factory with a 2.2 Dodge Turbo motor. Now its got an Intercooler, more boost, super 60 setup, its running 13s - 13.184 @ 102.57 mph.
Its a little sleeper and great for hauling my work ---- around and getting to and from school. That pass was with full interior, not some stripped down sled. A/C, power everything. Still sucks that its a van, but hell I can pull the seats and toss in my Bike or haul parts all that ----.
Most centrifugal units average a 4:1 internal ratio, then of course the external crank to Supercharger pulley. If you only needed 30K at 6k thats only a 5:1 ratio, thats nothing. Again thats why I was trying to find more information. Wynjammer units work, s10 guys love em, same with the TBI GM crowd, mustangs and Ford trucks, must be something to it. That is what makes it hard to decide if its BS or not. If Wynjammer made a kit for the Infiniti I would probably jump on it, cause I have seen one up close, and my friend has been running his for over a year with year problems.
No turbo or supercharger on this car yet. I did the turbo thing on my Bug, My GTI and My old Camry. Not new to turbos, like I said in the begining, was looking for information. Other than the attitude these bdt guys through at one of you anyone got more to go on?
I cant say I like the price either. I do like the idea of easy install and low heat for more power at low boost.
Whatever, the hard choice is turbo or supercharger. ---- I might just say screw it and do the twin turbo swap from a 300Z. Or some ---- like that.
I like to do the research before I start a project and thats where I am at. But hell Im not hurting for boost, I got a crazy *** minivan - yea minvan hahaha its a dodge caravan, Started from the factory with a 2.2 Dodge Turbo motor. Now its got an Intercooler, more boost, super 60 setup, its running 13s - 13.184 @ 102.57 mph.
Its a little sleeper and great for hauling my work ---- around and getting to and from school. That pass was with full interior, not some stripped down sled. A/C, power everything. Still sucks that its a van, but hell I can pull the seats and toss in my Bike or haul parts all that ----.
06-05-2006, 07:05 AM
#32
3.0 BAR
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,322
Re: NEW FORCED INDUCTION SYSTEM!!!!11
Pretty interesting.
IMO I still wouldn't get one of these products over a supercharger or turbocharger. Like others have said, a turbo requires a bit higher rpm than a belt driven turbo will provide...unless it's geared for it. It wouldn't surpise me that turbos run hotter...don't forget what spins the turbine on a turbo.
Welcome to the forum RacerX.
IMO I still wouldn't get one of these products over a supercharger or turbocharger. Like others have said, a turbo requires a bit higher rpm than a belt driven turbo will provide...unless it's geared for it. It wouldn't surpise me that turbos run hotter...don't forget what spins the turbine on a turbo.
Welcome to the forum RacerX.
06-05-2006, 05:58 PM
#33
0.0 BAR
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Re: NEW FORCED INDUCTION SYSTEM!!!!11
Thanks for the welcome, I am still reading old threads. So adjusting.
Yea I get the heat issues.
Thing is, look at procharger: http://www.procharger.com/models.shtml
Then look at large Turbos, the larger the exducer the lower the rpm required for boost and with a larger inducer higher flow rates like:
Less rpm is required for boost but the flow rate is huge, like the prochargers, way oversized one of those turbos on some small motor would be overkill, exactly why regular centrifugal unis suck *** when used on small motors. Our flow rates are so far left of the surge line it aint funny.
So if you could pull the flow rate from a small inducer size and match it to a large exducer (major diameter of the wheel) then in theory you would have the cfm of a smaller turbo but boost would come on quicker. The exhaust side of a turbo is what spins the wheel, but the wheel size is what makes for flow and boost numbers.
As for the ratios, if you take a 4.44:1 ratio and then something like a 2:1 external ratio(see the C-1 - when mounted on a import) you get a max ratio of 8.88 at say a redline of 6k that equals = 53.28k.
And the C-1 has a 4.25 exducer, comparable to something like a T-72. In theory then take a larger wheel like the T-91 with its 5" exducer so that drops rpm for the same amount of flow to around 45.28k
Look at how the size of the exducer increases, bigger and bigger wheels in the procharger and look at how much the CFM increases even with similar inlet and outlet sizes.
The wynjammer does the same thing, big wheel, around 6" from what I can tell in a large housing, and the ratios are what determines flow.
From the Crank to the Alternator seems to be 2.5:1 on the S10, then from the Alt to the SC is another 3:1 so that yields a total ratio of 7.5:1. If we follow the same logic then we need 37.29K for the same boost with the 6" wheel, with all other things being the same. Of course I could have all this ---- bass ackwards... But 37.29 /7.5 = 4.9k engine rpm.
So if you can get the ratios externally without having to use an oil bath or any bs like that, you end up with the wynjammer, or some ---- like it, external ratios instead of internal, no heat soak of the belts, like the silent drive from procharger, biggest failure on centrifugal units was with internal belts, cause you cant keep the cool, gears yes.
Anyway, they talk a good game and the theories and engineering ---- holds up, simple facts, large wheel means less RPM to achieve a level of flow and pressure, smaller inducer less overall flow per rev.
Like I said before, I get the engineering bs, Im studying to be a mech. engineer, I get flow dynamics, I get the thoery and all that crap, I get the efficiency, if its for real, it will run cooler and last longer than a internal drive unit, by nature of its design. Sealed bearings class 9 especially have insane load and speed ratings, if that is what they are using even in steal, let alone ceramic, then thats a class above what paxton, procharger and vortech use on all but their high end stuff, most of their setups, use a class 7 bearing on the main shaft and only a class 2 on the input shaft.
My teach, has some experience in this crap, we took apart a busted one in class to discuss load, engineering, oil bath etc... great class, its what got me interested in this ---- over a turbo in the first place.
Anyway who the F--k knows, they talk a good game and the engineering and all that from procharger, rotrex, etc.. is their, time and again all the centrifugal companies that have come and gone, use big wheels for boost at a lower rpm and more flow.
Hell if you go way back their where units used in the hay day of racing early on that ran 8" compressor wheels and made serious boost by 18k compressor rpm.
Like I said the search goes on, as for the cost, the cost of their BDT or whatever you call it, is no different than a new paxton, procharger or vortech, and seems to include a mounting system via the alternator, something that doesnt come with buying just a paxton, you have to buy a damn 3k+ kit to get all that ----.
Some one save me from myself.... the damn ---- sounds good when I look at it from an engineering perspective, but no way of knowing if they are suppling the real deal, I suppose I could get a Wynjammer and adapt it, but ---- I could just get a used paxton and or something and adapt that, course you dont get a warranty, hahaha but I dont need no stinking warranty!
On the other hand if you look at other turbos with small inducers
Yea I get the heat issues.
Thing is, look at procharger: http://www.procharger.com/models.shtml
Then look at large Turbos, the larger the exducer the lower the rpm required for boost and with a larger inducer higher flow rates like:
Less rpm is required for boost but the flow rate is huge, like the prochargers, way oversized one of those turbos on some small motor would be overkill, exactly why regular centrifugal unis suck *** when used on small motors. Our flow rates are so far left of the surge line it aint funny.
So if you could pull the flow rate from a small inducer size and match it to a large exducer (major diameter of the wheel) then in theory you would have the cfm of a smaller turbo but boost would come on quicker. The exhaust side of a turbo is what spins the wheel, but the wheel size is what makes for flow and boost numbers.
As for the ratios, if you take a 4.44:1 ratio and then something like a 2:1 external ratio(see the C-1 - when mounted on a import) you get a max ratio of 8.88 at say a redline of 6k that equals = 53.28k.
And the C-1 has a 4.25 exducer, comparable to something like a T-72. In theory then take a larger wheel like the T-91 with its 5" exducer so that drops rpm for the same amount of flow to around 45.28k
Look at how the size of the exducer increases, bigger and bigger wheels in the procharger and look at how much the CFM increases even with similar inlet and outlet sizes.
The wynjammer does the same thing, big wheel, around 6" from what I can tell in a large housing, and the ratios are what determines flow.
From the Crank to the Alternator seems to be 2.5:1 on the S10, then from the Alt to the SC is another 3:1 so that yields a total ratio of 7.5:1. If we follow the same logic then we need 37.29K for the same boost with the 6" wheel, with all other things being the same. Of course I could have all this ---- bass ackwards... But 37.29 /7.5 = 4.9k engine rpm.
So if you can get the ratios externally without having to use an oil bath or any bs like that, you end up with the wynjammer, or some ---- like it, external ratios instead of internal, no heat soak of the belts, like the silent drive from procharger, biggest failure on centrifugal units was with internal belts, cause you cant keep the cool, gears yes.
Anyway, they talk a good game and the theories and engineering ---- holds up, simple facts, large wheel means less RPM to achieve a level of flow and pressure, smaller inducer less overall flow per rev.
Like I said before, I get the engineering bs, Im studying to be a mech. engineer, I get flow dynamics, I get the thoery and all that crap, I get the efficiency, if its for real, it will run cooler and last longer than a internal drive unit, by nature of its design. Sealed bearings class 9 especially have insane load and speed ratings, if that is what they are using even in steal, let alone ceramic, then thats a class above what paxton, procharger and vortech use on all but their high end stuff, most of their setups, use a class 7 bearing on the main shaft and only a class 2 on the input shaft.
My teach, has some experience in this crap, we took apart a busted one in class to discuss load, engineering, oil bath etc... great class, its what got me interested in this ---- over a turbo in the first place.
Anyway who the F--k knows, they talk a good game and the engineering and all that from procharger, rotrex, etc.. is their, time and again all the centrifugal companies that have come and gone, use big wheels for boost at a lower rpm and more flow.
Hell if you go way back their where units used in the hay day of racing early on that ran 8" compressor wheels and made serious boost by 18k compressor rpm.
Like I said the search goes on, as for the cost, the cost of their BDT or whatever you call it, is no different than a new paxton, procharger or vortech, and seems to include a mounting system via the alternator, something that doesnt come with buying just a paxton, you have to buy a damn 3k+ kit to get all that ----.
Some one save me from myself.... the damn ---- sounds good when I look at it from an engineering perspective, but no way of knowing if they are suppling the real deal, I suppose I could get a Wynjammer and adapt it, but ---- I could just get a used paxton and or something and adapt that, course you dont get a warranty, hahaha but I dont need no stinking warranty!
On the other hand if you look at other turbos with small inducers
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